Location:	Sundre
	Date:	October 23, 2000
	Number of Participants:	9
Other Locations: October 17 Leduc October 18 Drayton Valley October 19 Rocky Mountain House October 23 Sundre October 24 Grande Prairie October 25 Red Deer October 26 Calgary October 30 Pincher Creek Summary Aboriginal Summary Response Forms	MEETING NOTES 1. Development Planning Coordination of surface and subsurface planning and development A lot of sour gas issues are really development issues. Timely clean-ups to prevent migration of pollution are required. Coordination of planning and development of subsurface resources Planned corridors to prevent freedom for other developments and agriculture. 2. EUB Role Content of regulations conversion of facilities from sweet to sour needs attention Effectiveness of the field surveillance system and other enforcement measures EUB is understaffed. That effects performance. Profits from resources should go back to staffing EUB. A percentage of profits should be taken from industry for the EUB. The EUB needs proper funding and staff to enforce the regulations they already have. Self-monitoring is not effective. EUB must be more proactive. There are enough regulations. If everything was enforced it would all be spic & span. EUB has limited staff - if they have to go back twice to a company they should shut it down. This would set an example, save staff time, and prevent conflict with the community. The enforcement ladder: "It is a 16 foot ladder for a 8 foot roof." MUST enforce! There is room for everyone (industry, landowners, etc) EUB staff need to help keep stakeholders informed - about precedent and experience. Application and decision process Landowners are responsible for land in the end. So many companies come through his land, he fights and fights and finally gets a company to cooperate, then the EUB signs for the company to sell. He has to start all over again, pay for lawyers, etc. Companies sell and pass the buck. Health Authority must be involved in any licensing People hired by EUB must be trained properly to deal with the public (ie. hearings). Should be consultation before getting to dispute resolution. Board must be trained to recognize and address/resolve concerns before they become big issues. EUB is short staffed. Don't say EUB can't afford it… people pay high gas and utility bills! Health Authorities should be involved before the license is granted Relationship with Stakeholders EUB staff are involved in many public consultation processes and they are way too passive at the table. They should contribute their experience and knowledge so that public groups don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time. The Red Deer EUB is proactive compared to many areas. Deficiencies exist in field offices fulfilling their roles. EUB should mail out responses to calls if people don't have telephones. People are always waiting for information. Lack of quick response. People notice an odor, flaring, etc, and call the EUB. But they won't call in again because the EUB doesn't respond. People are so mad!! Now they won't call at all anymore because they feel it is useless. 90% of people who don't report things say it is because they didn't get a response. People MUST GET A RESPONSE! EUB staff are too passive in public processes. They are intelligent and experienced people and their experience needs to be shared more! EUB brochure is a good idea. 3. Monitoring Monitor more chemicals Get monitors in the direction of the wind!! Ground level monitoring of industry performance is necessary. Monitors should be 1 foot from the ground, where the cows heads are when they eat. One man was promised monitoring would be done. Then he was told that the EUB never approved it. Nothing has happened about it. Industry shouldn't monitor itself. EUB should be more proactive. EUB is short-staffed and so industry monitors itself. Industry is too preoccupied with H2S and SO2. Community is more concerned about emissions as a total. Other stuff must be looked at. Research must be done. For example, industry says that sweet flaring is OK, but communities are still concerned about it. This should be stressed in the report. Industry takes it too lightly. They say 'it's only 5% sour', but public is still concerned about it. CASA should be mentioned in the report. People must know about the importance of CASA's work, and people deserve to see the results of their work. The committee should facilitate this by mentioning it in the report. Good to note that ANIMALS are worthy of consideration. We quite agree. Other products, chemicals and pollutants contained in sour gas need to be recognized and monitored.   4. Jurisdiction Things are so complicated already! To bring MDs into regulations would complicate things. Be very cautious. Municipal politicians are inadequate (they are new) and not capable of dealing with the seriousness of emissions. Break up the EUB. The EUB was expanded a few years back. Should go back to oil and gas business. Don Getty pushed the electrical department onto the EUB. EUB should stick with regulatory processes. Regulating the sale of natural gas and electricity is a conflict of interest: this should stay in the political arena. It brings political issues into the EUB. 5. Industry Procedures and Personnel Companies must listen to landowners when developing. People developing should be on site to see the land instead of sitting in Calgary. Companies must accept local knowledge. Farmers often know when a company is going to run into problems (ie. location pipeline or well), but the companies won't listen. It's more difficult to get changes on major developments: ie. major pipeline. Landowner had to spend his own money on lawyers to get a company to follow a contract THEY had signed! FRUSTRATING!!! Every company should do a good job. One man told the company he wanted clean-up done on his land. The company brought in a company from out of province that didn't know anything about how things are done and how people live in Alberta. He complained and the other company removed them, so no evidence was removed. People aren't trained, don't know the rules or how people have been fighting. They don't understand and are abusive, create conflict, etc. Small companies give landowners the run-around. They don't have the money to do necessary stuff. Industry policy is to reduce staff and cut spending. As a result everything is contracted out. Company doesn't make contractors understand and act under the company protocol. Staff are cut and departments are put together. They can' t operate effectively. Company must make their company protocol clear to contractors and be responsible for them. Good contractors have high prices, and bad contractors underbid them. Eventually the good contractors leave the area, and then companies only have bad contractors to choose from. This only hurts the landowners. Jobs are not done right. It is all because of industry cutbacks. Jobs aren't done properly and so they have to come back and do it again. Company doesn't want to spend money or can't get good contractors, so it drags on. For example, they have been working on a pipeline for 10 years: 3 different companies, and the companies don't have to pass on information to each other so each company starts over from scratch. EUB should force companies to pass on information to each other when ownership changes. Farmers are discriminated against: companies pay different landowners different amounts of money. Land agents disrespect landowners and threaten them, but landowners don't report it because it is their word against the land agent's. 'Top dog' of company came and verbally abused one farmer's wife. They he tried to provoke the farmer…this was only a week after the shooting. The Farmer's Advocate and AB Environment were present at the time, but provided no support. Quality of people who come to the door to communicate is poor. Respect on both sides is a real problem. RE: driver issue: remove 'industry'. Industry is not responsible for maintaining health and safety. If regulations are good and enforced industry can't do any harm. Just make and enforce good regulations. Add the words "rules and procedures" to the driver issues statement instead. People want industries to work together where there is a problem. They should be encouraged by EUB to join volunteer organizations. There is a general lack of trust in industry. They are only concerned about the bottom line. There may be good people, but they have to make money. Safety people don't always know all the facts about a community. They should be expected to be informed and educated about all aspects of a community. 6. Emergency Response Planning and Preparedness One man called the company from his home because the smell of sour gas was so strong. The company said that they couldn't come to check it out until they got back-up because the levels were to high. But he is expected to live there?!?! One landowner said he has never seen ERPs NOT done to the regulations. But communities should be able to ask for things over and above the regulations (ie. not using a perfect circle). Once the company has agreed to it, the EUB can and should regulate it. Communities should realize they have this ability. SPOG does this. Performance measures were created while the EUB was present, and the EUB can enforce them. When new companies come to the area they will be asked to contact SPOG. Need more work on sour liquids. Could kill instantly. Emergency response must ensure that no one is missed when informing the public. Some sort of test should be used to ensure that all people are contacted (correct phone numbers, etc).  7. Understanding Health Effects So many studies have been done and there are never any conclusions. Public doubts whether conclusions will ever be found. Need proper studies and disclosure to the public. Public confidence is getting more critical every day. Health Authorities must be included. Everyone should see "Survivors of Sour Gas" video: it will scare the living hell out of everyone. RE: lethality: it says if you are 500m away you are not going to die, and so its good. Dealing only with lethality concerns is not good enough! More comments needs to be made on chronic effects. Sweet gas is dangerous too. Don't only look at H2S and S02. Important to consider H2S, SO2, AND other compounds. Agree Health Effects Table should be revised, but how will you make the message credible? RE: a revised comprehensive health effects table: yes, good idea. EUB should ensure that sour gas releases should be monitored where public feel effects. This would give a better picture of health effects on people, crops, and livestock and a background for proving effects. 8. Technical Knowledge Dispersion modeling Computerized modeling not sufficient: doesn't predict unique situations. Industry was allowed to lower stat temperatures at Caroline plant. The air is yellow and hazy. Plume not pushed high enough to disperse. The public accepted the plant, but not at lowered stat levels. Steam mixes with the plume and particles drop out. The whole area is drier, but yet farmers can't dry crops because they mold. This is due to the emissions, which spread from Sundre to Caroline. Sometimes it is like rain coming down, but there are no clouds. At one farm, a scientist who does modeling for the oil industry argued that the emission was in the upper atmosphere, but the other scientists said it was obviously not. Can't trust industry workers. Can't judge a certain site by modeling. Modeling is a general method that gives general conclusions, but if someone says something is happening a different way, they must be believed. It is probably true. Modeling cannot be used as a final word when an incident happens. Although it is used for granting permits it does not accurately indicate what happens on a specific site. Risk assessment Strongly support the idea of a consistent approach to risk assessment. Scientists argue against each other and it accomplishes nothing. It scares the public. Risk assessment shouldn't even be talked about: this development isn't good for people. When dealing with risk assessment, many variables are not considered on specific sites. Therefore, the risks posed to some people are much greater than the average. Topography, cumulative effects, wind turbulence in certain areas, etc. needs to be looked at. 8. Setbacks Criteria for setbacks There are two different setback issues: (1) for pipelines (2) for facilities. Must be careful to distinguish between these. Company flare tested a well 300m from one farmer's home (March 1998) and some of his animals died. There is no safe distance. Shouldn't be allowed to drill a well if there is a farm in any quarter. Setback distance must be increased on home quarter Most people don't understand setbacks. EUB must simplify it: make it clear and simple, include safety issues. There doesn't need to be development near a house Land sterilization: be cautious in increasing setbacks. It should ONLY be done for safety. Instead of increasing setbacks, force industry to use innovative technology to make it safe within current distances Setbacks for Class 3 and 4 should be looked at. Setbacks don't protect from poor material in industry operations: leaks, water contamination, etc. Setbacks need to be simpler and easier to understand and explain Setbacks - such a variety of forces/interests come into lay on this issue. Please don't let 'the developers' call the shots. We own a quarter section that has no place for a building site because of setbacks. Is this fair? Effects of setbacks Committee must look at issues with Disclosure Document and land sales and setbacks: if setbacks change and a farmer is 'grandfathered', when he sells and has to fill the Disclosure Form he will have to say that his setbacks are not legal. It will cost him money. Everything is pushed onto the landowner. Setbacks have a big input on the way we expand and improve our cattle handling. Because of setbacks and topography it is a huge inconvenience. No thought was given by industry or the Surface Rights Board.   9. Public Consultation by Industry EUB needs to participate - explaining precedents and experience elsewhere. They are too passive when involved in consultations. What is the carrot for industry to consult? The system must reward public consultation. Landowner taxes have been raised in our area because of industry while we receive less benefits. We've lost land use and our roads are constantly beaten up by the industry. One benefit we get is more expensive fuel. 10. Public Awareness and Education The EUB should pass out an information package about how farmers can effectively record things (ie. take pictures before something happens). Need a special recording system so people can record animal health, etc to prove the effects of sour gas. Farmers can't afford to have a vet come out before something happens to inspect herd health. Again the onus is put on the landowner to prove everything, but industry can't be trusted. Reports have been falsified regarding animal health. Possibly educate landowners to clearly lay out their expectations The EUB should be the central information source. We need to ensure that the EUB is a credible source of information . That part needs some work. A lot of people don't know the difference between sweet/sour/critical. Maybe that should be distinguished. Landowner packages should include a package to record and assess animal health, before and after a sour gas activity. This is currently being worked on by the CASA Animal Health Group and could be distributed by EUB. 12. Aboriginal Issues There definitely seems to be a lack of ability in the EUB to deal appropriately with Aboriginal issues. 13. Implementation Must make sure you have a thorough, simple, and credible message. There have been review in the past, but nothing has been done. They are all important issues. A lot comes down to EUB credibility. EUB needs resources!! There are a lot of regulations. They must be enforced. New regulations must also be enforces. Public wants results!! There have been enough studies done, it is time for results Don't make it a confusing, complicated process or little concerns will all develop into disputes requiring legal action. Industry and the EUB will have big headaches: People are changing and becoming more educated and informed. There are higher populations. All this will affect industry and how it is regulated. This must be considered when making recommendations. 14. Non-mandate but Important Issues Certainly the first 4 issues (flaring, long-term monitoring) are essential. I hope the committee brings all the weight it can to examination and effective work on these issues. Other products, chemicals and pollutants contained in sour gas need to be recognized and monitored. Additional Comments: Discussion RE: SPOG: -SPOG is a volunteer organization. -SPOG should present its position. It went to CAPP, but it should also go to SEPAC. -EUB should be responsible: there shouldn't be a need for SPOG. The EUB should be able to shut operations in. SPOG does the EUBs job, but as volunteers. -the committee requested a copy of SPOG performance measures. This could be useful for industry. EUB is considering adding it to Guide 56. RE: reclamation of sites: landowners are ultimately responsible. One man doesn't want to give his farm to his kids because they will be responsible for the clean-up. Bank loans are a BIG ISSUE! Should be reviewed by EUB to see how it can be handled. People's operating loans are refused because their property is contaminated. EUB issued the license. Why should the farmer be penalized? EUB and industry failed to protect the land. It costs $20,000 to $25,000 for and environmental audit. How can the EUB expect farmers to pay for these? Full disclosure should exist from company to company and company to government. Many topics were brought up that one landowner hadn't thought of Thanks for listening Good information has been generated. Hope something gets done! The work the committee has done to date is, in my opinion, very good. I believe you are getting the issues and express them well. As you go forth, the challenges are: Simple, clear message: complexity is to be avoided at all costs. Messages must be thoroughly communicated (previous sour gas reviews suffered this way).